Conscientious Objection to Vaccinations? What The Fuck Australia.

For a while I was lulled into thinking that Australia was becoming some kind of rational place thanks to all the progress we had been making. After years of campaigning, blogging and whining about it to friends we’re less than 6 months away from having a R18+ rating for games in Australia. The government also seemed to become more aware of people acting irrationally and decided to do something about it, removing the family tax benefit for parents who refused to vaccinate their kids. Sure we still had a long way to go but the beginnings of a rational, logical government seemed to be sprouting up everywhere and for a time I was happy.

All it took was one news article to bring that all down in one sweeping blow. I’ll let the exerpt speak for itself:

While parents have been warned they will lose their payment and the childcare benefit if they do not fully immunise their children, they are also being told exemptions will be given to objectors.

All they have to do to still receive the money is fill out a form supplied by the Federal Government.

The Federal Government’s Department of Human Services website outlines the immunisation requirements.

It reads: “To meet the immunisation requirements, children will need to be fully immunised, be on a recognised immunisation catch-up schedule, or have an approved exemption.”

You can imagine how furious this made me.

So last November when I blogged about the Australian government taking away tax benefits for people who refused to vaccinate their children I thought it was a no holds barred approach: if you refuse to vaccinate you lose the money, simple. Turns out that’s not entirely the case as whilst if you do refuse to vaccinate you will lose the benefit that will only happen should you fail to fill out he conscientious objection form available from DHS. If you fill out that form then you’re right as rain and you’ll get the full tax benefits as if you had fully immunized your child even though you haven’t.

To me that seems more like a punishment for the ignorant and unaware, not people who don’t want to vaccinate their children.

Indeed it makes the whole policy null and void as the anti-vaxers are a vocal movement, with posts like these reaching a wide audience. Realistically if the government was serious about this legislation there wouldn’t be any exemptions at all and the anti-vaxers would have to endure both the physical and fiscal consequences of their actions. Instead now all we have is anti-vaxers wasting the time of doctors in order to get them to sign a form so they can then reclaim the money that they shouldn’t be entitled to and that makes me incredibly furious.

You see whilst the Australian Vaccination Network might like to think that there’s two sides to the vaccination debate they are in fact clearly wrong. The old pretence of vaccinations causing autism is patently false and anyone pointing to data saying that there have been more cases of autism since their introduction forgets the fact that diagnosing austim spectrum disorders has been an area of scientific investigation ever since it was introduced. Any increase in the condition’s prevalence is far more likely due to the umbrella of ASDs spreading than vaccinations or some other mysterious environmental factor.

Worse still are the proponents who think vaccinations aren’t the best way to develop a healthy immune system and that it can be had through a healthy diet or some other rubbish. Vaccines work because they give your immune system the tools with which to destroy the disease before it can take hold and the only other way to get a similar level of immunity is to catch the disease. For some vaccinated diseases this might not be too bad (chicken pox has only recently had a vaccine developed as the symptoms are very mild for children, however they can be deadly for adults) but for things like small pox, polio and other nasty diseases vaccination is the only safe way to get immunity. There are other diseases for which no immunity develops after you’ve caught it (pertussis or whooping cough) which means you could very well catch the same disease repeated times without strengthening the immune system at all.

I will wholeheartedly defend the parent’s rights to do as they will with their own bodies but the second they start to make decisions about their child’s (and indirectly all other children that interact with them) health then I believe the government has every right to step in and intervene. The fact of the matter is that refusal to vaccinate your child isn’t a decision that affects your child it puts every other child near them at risk. Herd immunity only goes so far and we’ve seen far too many tragic incidents where parents of children who can’t be vaccinated yet (because they’re too young) die because another child would could have been vaccinated wasn’t and then transmitted a fatal infection to them. Not vaccinating your children is a completely selfish decision and I believe the government has every right to punish you for it.

How you can claim to have a concious and object to protecting your child with scientifically proven and tested methods is beyond my comprehension. There is no scientific argument that the anti-vaxer movement can bring forward that supports their view, it’s all based on the emotion of those who believe vaccines are responsible for something that they’re not. I can understand their frustration, I used to work with special needs children and it can be truly heart wrenching at times, and the need to look for a source of blame is incredibly strong. However I can’t condone them blaming vaccines for anything but making their child cry when they get the injection as there’s no evidence to support it and abstaining from them puts their child and all other children around them in serious danger.

Seriously Australia, don’t support this kind of bullshit. It’s our kids who will pay the price.


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  1. Amen brother. I recommend a read of Bad Science by Ben Goldacre (the book, though his blog is a good source as well) for a good debunking of the foundations the anti-vaxers stand on.

  2. Just so you know, I can’t immunise by children as they have anaphylactic reactions when done. I am fully immunised and I believe in it, just not for our kids.

  3. That’s incredibly unfortunate Joan as anaphylaxis caused by vaccinations is incredibly rare, usually on the order 1 in 1 million. Just to note that it’s not the vaccines themselves that are causing that reaction but ingredients used as stabilizers (egg protein typically). In this case your children would benefit from the herd immunity that would be granted to them once everyone else is vaccinated however people who chose not to vaccinate put them at risk unnecessarily.

    If you don’t mind me asking which vaccine caused the reaction? As far as the research goes MMR appears to be safe with no cases reported yet. HPV and the flu vaccine were more likely however.

  4. Hi I am a post grad public health student and I have come to my own conclusion that the Public health system has failed alot of people in regards to the burden of disease and disability in the Western society.
    The World Health Organisation WHO provides a framework for most western countries and Primary Health Care was a concept that started out in Canada part of this health care is called the first point of contact which is more about prevention which promotes and educates the masses on how to live healthy lives in which we rely heavily on the media to do so.
    One thing they failed to tell us which I found confusing was that ‘Wheat’ is the biggest contributer to diabetes and bowel cancer check out William Davis the ‘Wheat Belly Diet Book’. If you want longevity and quality of life cutting out wheat and taking vitamin D is essential. Sadly wheat which is processed and refined is a staple in most Western countries. So where was WHO then did they bother to tell us this that are staple makes us sick.
    Sickness is big business and my sentiments where echoed by others that there is a huge world wide industry based on sickness and that is the Pharmaceutical companies. It is all about money and they bank on us to be sick as revenue for them.
    Doctors in the public health system have too many clients to form relationships to find the cause of what ailes us and at times they are only pushers of drugs and medicines for those very same companies with there latest products.
    So long story short if they can withold such vital information on how wheat is the biggest contributer to diabetes and bowl cancer what else could they withold. Nobody knows what causes Autism but I believe someone does but knowledge is power and alot of studies have been done on the link between Thyroid and autism but hypothyroid is the hardest condition to be diagnosed. More than half the population have an underactive thyroid who are never diagnosed so when you have your child your child’s developement has already been compromised and made vulnerable by this condition. Now all you need is an external factor to further interfere with your childs development apparently the mercury used a preservative in the vaccine is considered the culprit and then we have another industry based on disease and disability. What a sick world we live in I would love to know if any of those children who’s parents have rejected their vaccines have autism.

  5. There is alot of evidence out there if you can peice it together they are not going to tell you in one document. Why do you wait for evidence based research when even that is rigged by the pharmaceutical companies. There is no evidence because even that is controlled all these doctors pushing for parents to immunise their children are just scare tactics to make people compliant. These doctors do not understand there is something more menacing at play here they are indoctrined by the pharmaceutical companies. Where do you think swine flu and bird flu came from… they were manufactored like aids and ebola to wipe out undesirable populations. Then all of a sudden there was a worldwide panic to find a vaccine for something they made in the first place. They have gathered enough information on the human body, our genetics and dna to know what we are prone too. They know what to use to intervene and take away our most valuable asset which is our health. It is our own ignorance that we continue to fall prey to trust unknowns who are not worth our trust at all. Who knows what is them vaccines; mercury is used as a preservant but any heavy metal is harmful to an adults brain little own a developing child’s brain. So why take the chance on vaccination because who will look after your autistic child when you are dead and gone. Certainly not society the rise in Autism is unbelievable I do believe it does occur naturally but the recent spike in numbers is an abomination that I believe has been manufactored. I support those parents who choose not to immunise and I completely understand where they are coming from we are talking about our loved ones lives and who look after them when we are gone.

  6. Your article shows that you are another mindless sheep willing to believe strangers who are influenced by the money game.

  7. Care to elaborate on that Vin? I have a pretty strong foundation for my trust in science, especially when it comes to vaccines, thanks to the decades of research that backs them up. If you’ve got something to say about them then I’d love to hear it but calling someone a “mindless sheep” isn’t the best way to start off a conversation, don’t you think?

  8. Mindless sheep I know not nice my previous comments were deleted but where is the evidence that says vaccines are not responsible for autism where in what study that was ever done rules out all vaccines entirely? All the studies I have read are quite vague about why autism occurs because there is no concrete evidence as to why. I believe it does occur naturally but the spike in numbers suggest something else leading to a nameless and faceless trail of questions. Can you blame people who want to take some initiative or think outside the box. Research hasn’t given the public answers on prevention of late why wait for them to get yet anther grant or funding for the sake of science to run research that could be biased. Have you ever watched Lorenzo’s oil that man took initiative he didn’t wait for those so called scientist to provide him with a cure. Look at Dr William Davis through his own practice and research he found that our seemingly harmless staple wheat has been genetically modified which spikes our blood sugar more than a can of softdrink. Wheat and its by products is the biggest contributor to obesity, diabetes and bowel cancer in the US even here. Where was your scientific research then… to announce to the public this silent killer in the disguise of our staple and all these bogus eat more wholegrains etc and die faster while we make money off you with diabetes meds and cancer treatments. Until then I am willing to believe that the unknown external factors contributing to autism could be the vaccine which hasn’t been proved otherwise. Every hypothesis has set objectives all it is your premeditated answer or theory and then proving through vigorous investigation that its true? I wonder if any of those vaccine objectors have any children with autistic traits because this could be the start of something.

  9. Your previous comments must have been marked as spam as I certainly did not delete them. All your future comments will get through now, however.

    The initial study that was “proved” there was a link between autism and vaccines has been repeatedly disproven and Andrew Wakefield, the man behind the paper, has since had his medical license revoked because of it. All studies since then have failed to find a causative link between vaccines and autism. The fact of the matter is we still don’t know what causes autism as genetic inheritance doesn’t appear to be the major cause. The biggest factor we can deduce so far is natal environmental factors which are incredibly hard to control for which is why we don’t have a definitive cause for it.

    However we can eliminate things as causes and vaccines are one such factor that we have eliminated.

    The “spike” in numbers you reference are in fact due to the diagnostic tools improving, not the incident rate increasing. There’s been a lot of studies done that compare autism rates in children with that of adults (who didn’t meet the criteria when they were children but now do) and there is no significant difference in incidence rate. Should the increase use of vaccines to blame there would be a discrepancy which would warrant further investigation but all the evidence we have so far points to vaccines not being the cause.

    You are vastly underestimating the effort that is going into preventing these afflictions. Since we don’t really understand what causes autism there’s no way for doctors to give advice on how to avoid it.

    I checked out Dr William Davis and whilst he might be one proponent of the no-wheat diet he’s by far the first person to be the advocate of it and there’s been numerous studies done into paleo/keto diets which forgo grains (including wheat) prior to his diet coming to market. Most of the obesity epidemic isn’t just because of wheat though, it’s the overwhelming excess of calories that people intake. In fact studies done between calorie controlled diets that both include and exclude grains show almost identical health benefits.

    Forgive me for saying this but you on the one hand distrust the pharmaceutical companies because they’re making money off us when these brave doctors you referred to are, essentially, doing the same thing? The whole Wheat Belly thing is predicated on him peddling his 2 books to you. If you’re going to extend scepticism to the health system whilst trusting one lone doctor without considering that both of them are making money off you then you’re not really acting rationally and are simply working off emotion.

    We have, at many varied and differing points, concluded that vaccines are not a factor in autism. This is based on numerous scientific studies, meta-analyses and good old fashioned statistical digging. You’re welcome to not believe it but the great thing about science is that it doesn’t require your belief for it to be true. If you want direct links to studies I’m more than happy to provide them to you as honestly it looks like you’re just simply not aware of the vast amount of science that has been done on this, and many other, area of public health.

  10. I’ve found your other comments and approved them. I feel its appropriate that I respond to some of the claims you’re making there.

    Do you have any proof that there were studies done, specifically on wheat, that were then withheld from the general public? As far as I know there’s quite a few studies done on it and it’s not a big controversy as you might make it out to be. Check out other caloric restriction diets that don’t exclude wheat and see how they compare, I’m sure you’ll be surprised.

    Thimerosal, the mercury based preservative that was used in some vaccines (and still is), has been exonerated as a cause for pretty much anything several times over. The mercury contained in there is well below a level that can cause a reaction and even after it was removed from vaccines, like in Japan, the incident rate of autism did not change. If it was to blame there would have been a significant reduction but, lo and behold, there wasn’t.

    I’m sorry scare tactics? We have systematically eradicated diseases that plague humanity for decades prior, things that were responsible for billions of unnecessary human deaths. You think that the doctors and the pharmaceutical companies are just pushing vaccinations to many money? Please, there is no evidence to support that position and there’s mountains of evidence to support the fact that vaccines work exactly as advertised. Indeed most pharmaceutical companies avoid developing vaccines because they’re an one shot deal, but that hasn’t stopped them researching it.

    You believe swine flu, avian flu, Ebola and AIDS were manufactured? I was willing to say that you were just ignorant of the research up until this point but it’s clear now that you’re deep into conspiracy territory here. Do you have any evidence, any at all, that supports this theory? If they are, as you say, conditions that were designed to milk money out of the public then why is the biggest AIDS epidemic in a country that can’t afford the medication to treat it? Or, in the case of Ebola, has a mortality rate that is so high that treating them will likely be a one time deal? Again the flus are a one time deal and most of the people at risk don’t even pay for them.

    I really hope you’re trolling because someone going into the public health space with this level of disinformation would be doing a great deal more harm than good.

  11. Diabetics on dialysis should not eat bread especially wholegrain, it is inflammatory so there is your wheat connection right there the kidney cannot process the sugars converted from the carbs anymore, all diseases are progressive we don’t wake up and have cancer or diabetes it is a combination of lifestyle factors and diet leading up to the condition. We were actually told to incorporate in the 90’s more wholegrains in our diet. If you happen to rely on it as your main staple for more than 1 meal a day you could put yourself at risk of developing diabetes or cancer OVER TIME. This is what public health is about prevention before diseases develops I maybe trolling I maybe into conspiracy theories but I do not understand why the public health system have failed to tell us that our main staple the harmless bread sitting in your kitchen is harmful. That is there responsibility and yet you still want to question a more than qualified and well renowned doctor who found the connection out himself through his very relevant work and life practice with diabetes patients. He is only an example I used to make you see my point of why do you trust unknowns when they failed to tell us this. And as for the vaccines the public doesn’t pay but the governement still had to pay for them? Do I even need to tell you this and as for the doctor peddling a 35 dollar book the cost is little in comparison to the cost of taking diabetes meds or chemotherapy and the benefits of living a better quality of life and even reversing diabetes outweigh that little issue with cost. Please do not compare those cost to support your argument it is ridiculous it would be cost of your toilet paper for the month. You keep asking me where is the research that states this and that yet you haven’t found research to say no either. I read that article on Andrew Wakefield his research was unethical


    Cut in paste this into your browser please I just found it today it actually supports what I have said about pharmaceutical companies which I thought was my own thoughts however I am not the only one thinking that something is not quite right. I can’t answer all of your points its a good argument though sorry to badger but it is really hard to explain where I’m coming from I really thought we could trust our health system

  13. Diabetes doesn’t have anything to do with the kidneys (apart from chronic sufferers having kidney damage in the form of diabetic nephropathy) it’s a condition of the pancreas not producing enough insulin or the cells not responding to said insulin. Simple carbohydrates, like those found in grains and sugars, can cause spikes in blood glucose which leads to insulin insensitivity (and hence, diabetes). However any simple carbohydrate/high GI food will cause the same reaction and can lead to the same results if exposure is prolonged. I’m not saying grains can’t cause diabetes but there also not the only cause and, just like everything else, when eaten in moderation there’s no more risk than other foods with similar caloric loads.

    Of course I want to question him, that’s how science works. He’s made a hypothesis and has begun proposing it as the solution to a whole bunch of problems. As per the scientific method I require proof to back up those claims and, as far as I can see on his website, there are no clinical studies supporting his theorem. I have even gone as far as to search journals for published articles and haven’t found anything with his name on it so you’ll have to either provide some links to his published work or I’ll just continue on doubting his assertions.

    I do not trust “unknowns”, I trust the greater scientific community. Journals, publications and peer review are the tools we use to ensure that what people are saying is verifiable, testable and above all accurate. Circumventing these tools means that those key scientific processes are not utilized, leaving us with no way to ensure what someone is saying is credible. I’m all for people pushing the boundaries of current scientific thinking, even if its controversial, but what I can not abide is someone proposing a hypothesis and then never testing is validity in a scientific setting.

    Anecdotes are great but the plural of them is not data.

    The cost was not the point of my argument, it was the the distrust you placed in one organisation due to them making money off you and then not extending that same distrust to another individual who was doing the same thing. In all honesty I do not believe just eliminating grains from someone’s diet will cure them of diabetes as that’s not the cause of their problem, their ability to regulate their blood sugar is. Sure it may help, especially if they’re eliminating high GI foods from their diet, but there are many, may other things that they could replace grains with that would be far worse for them. If his “cure” works so well it will stand up to clinical rigour and not pursuing it would be reckless and irresponsible on his behalf.

    I’ve visited the link and what he’s saying is so wrong as to be frightening. I read the studies that his first link talks about, which apparently back up their claims, and they are grossly falsifying the results of those studies. The DPT one is outright false ( and the HiB one has no supporting evidence ( as the incident rates of the disease have decreased among children and adults since its introduction. The second article linked has 0 links to any studies and just simply alludes to them contradicting what doctors are saying about them.

    As for the page itself he’s making a case about personal liberty and how that if they object to the vaccines they’re really only harming themselves. That’s unfortunately not the case as when people don’t vaccinate themselves and their children they put others in danger by reducing the total number of vaccinated people. This puts herd immunity in danger and that means for people who can’t get vaccinated (like those who have anaphylactic reactions to them or those who are too young) can suffer because of this. We have already had several children die in Australia due to someone not vaccinating their kids, do you really want to encourage that kind of behaviour?

    You really, really need to look into the science behind these things as you’re falling prey to emotional arguments that have no evidence to back them up. It would be great to be able to fix the world’s problems with a single diet or by abstaining from something but the issues are far bigger than that. We have a great wealth of scientific information at our disposal and ignoring that for one reason or another is akin to sticking our fingers in our ears and pretending that the problem will go away on its own.

    Seriously, don’t do that to yourself.

  14. Ok I was wrong about the kidney health example but from what I can gather it seems you think that only scientific researchers are the ones who should perform research and have the credibility to do so. That guy Wakefield was the perfect example of why we shouldn’t trust them. Can we not question this doctor Davis’ credibility anymore I have only used him as my example to support my argument that we are only told information as how they want it to be told or portrayed. He is not against researchers or even blaming anyone just wheat that has been genetically modified and he has just humbly offered a solution to his pre-diabetic and diabetic patients. He was once diabetic himself and now is not, after taking wheat entirely out of his diet. He is a md in cardiology who has a practice in heart disease prevention and NY times best seller the evidence is his patients we don’t need clinical research for that when the test subjects can say for themselves that it works. They are on his blog everyday thanking him for their change in quality of life. There is nothing wrong or sinister with taking wheat out of your diet except it may be a little expensive the alternative almond meal, flaxseed meal etc and more time consuming baking your own loaves, cakes and scones as a replacement to bought bread. It could may well help alot of conditions outside of diabetes as well. I think that you are not actually reading alot of the information I have told you to see a connection because you already have a preconconcieved attitude on what you believe as well. So you continue to attack this doctor of which my argument is not about it he is only my example that I have used of how we are not fully made of aware of such things. It seems you are only into quantitative research which involves a lot of stats and numbers which can be by the way manipulated in good and bad ways but qualitative requires a story and a different level of understanding to finding a conclusion to a study. So his research has been done in a sense using a qualitative approach to see a pattern emerge based on results of before and after wheat patients. If you keep taking the human element out of clinical reasearch by comparing my emotive response to support my arguments then you are no better than them that is why they will never be held accountable for that dodgy batch of vaccines they may have already packed and shipped away to the trusting masses. I am only speaking from my personal experience we rely heavily on our information from WHO but it is very contradicting to what is represented here about the burden of disease in todays society. Information is given in one hand but is taken away with the other an industry built on the ignorance and trust of the masses you can definately tick that box and its no good me arguing with you as you have already made your mind up. You are young, obviously very smart and may not have children yet but look around you even here industries built on disadvantage and sickness there is no need for it. But its your life so please feel free to think outside of the box sometimes and do your own research don’t wait for it to be handed to you especially when sickness comes knocking at your door. I will sign off now…

  15. I brought up Wakefield because he is wholly responsible for linking vaccines to Autism which you had alluded to previously. The fact that the research paper has been shown to be invalid and the fact that he’s had his medical license taken away isn’t a valid reason for distrusting the broader medical/scientific community, it’s actually a sign that it’s working as intended. He made outlandish claims, conducted himself unethically and published a report that was based around false data. Whilst it took a lot longer than I might have liked to happen the peer review process weeded him out, just like it does for all other research that is not credible.

    Do you understand that the plural of anecdotes is not data? The treatments might appear to work for some people but the idea behind clinical research is to understand the efficacy of the treatment along with any potential side effects. For many things like homeopathy “work” for them however research into them shows they do not function above that the level of that of a placebo. This is what the trials are for and should the idea have any merit it will stand up to this scrutiny. Any self respecting doctor purporting such solutions would at least submit their ideas for controlled trials and publish the results. Writing a book about the idea just doesn’t cut it, unfortunately.

    The problem with all these diets that purport to cure or fix serious ailments (like diabetes and cancer) is the fact that their claims require extraordinary evidence to be true. People saying on a blog that a diet helped them is all well and good but that does not prove that the diet works, nor is it better than any of the alternatives available. If there’s any shred of credibility to the idea it will stand up to a little scientific investigation. Telling people to “try it for themselves” is not how this works and should never be the basis for any kind of public health policy. I’m not going to stop anyone from trying it, nor am I going to contest that it works for some people, merely that any claims that he wishes to make must be supported by sound, scientific evidence. Until then he’s in the same boat as all the other people on the Internet.

    There’s value in qualitative research if its approached in the same, scientific way. Simply taking patients, putting them on the diet, then getting them to fill out a survey afterwards is great for getting an idea of where to go but it does not provide the proof required. That requires controlled follow ups where you eliminate other factors to make sure your hypothesis is correct. These don’t have to be as rigorous as they are for other treatments but how are we to know that the improvement wasn’t from the reduction in caloric load rather than the removal of wheat? If its not controlled for there’s no way of telling if it was influential or not and that’s the issue I take with all of these fad diets that remove one specific category of food and claim all sorts of benefits.

    I’m not sure where to go with all these points you keep making about “them” (who I equate to being BigPharma) taking information away or preying on the ignorant masses by forcing them to have vaccines. Sure they are a corporations who have a motive for profit and should be treated with some level of scepticism but that’s what regulations are for and, on the whole, they’re a net positive benefit to society. They could do more, and they should do more, but do not make the mistake of placing your trust in others just because you don’t trust them.

    I’ve been fortunate that I haven’t been struck with any major illnesses in my life yet but as someone who has older parents I know the health care system better than most people would. You know what? At every turn where I’ve seen my parents in hospital I’ve had nothing but great experiences with them all being given the highest available care. My wife struggled for years with ailments that have since been fixed thanks to good old fashioned treatments that born out of research. I’ve worked in childcare where a child had whooping cough and I did not catch it from them thanks to my vaccinations. All this has come from science and yet you would so easily throw it all away because of the seductive arguments that individuals make on their blogs.

    You ask me to do research, I have, more than you probably think I have. Whenever someone makes a claim I make sure what they’re saying has a good basis behind it before I believe it. I’ve read through dozens of papers just for these responses alone and at every turn the claims you have made failed to stand up to the evidence I could find. I don’t have an agenda against any particular person, just the peddling of ideas without some form of research behind them. If the ideas can’t stand up to a little scrutiny then I can’t put my faith in them but I’ll spini on a dime the second they do.

    I would implore you to do the same.

  16. Know that it is a fact the many immunizations have horrible irreversible side effects that drug companies and governments sometimes decide to risk anyway but that some some parents decide to avoid by just not taking the risk. You sir have the right to take all the vaccinations and questionable pharmaceuticals you wish but no one has the right to impose their beliefs on others and much less insist that others put foreign substances into theirs and their babies’ bodies. Read about Garadasil. Read about flu shots; each year in the US the FDA chooses the four flu viruses they believe to be currently prevalent to concoct that year’s flu cocktail intended to guard individuals form the more than thirty known and constantly mutating viruses and they try to insist that the mercury, aluminum, chicken embryo, and other noxious bullshit in the shot won’t hurt us. You go ahead and gamble with your health, and give away your civil rights in the bargain. I’ll fight for the right to decide for myself.

  17. Care to point me to any research, any at all, that describes these horrible side effects you mention? There’s a very clear risk you take when you don’t get vaccinated especially when you’re either very young or getting older and the side effects (which are typically minor) are very much worth the risk. Are you telling me that you’d rather risk getting Polio than maybe have a fever for a little while?

    Whilst its great to cry civil liberties the thing is here is that your liberty only extends so far as to the point where it impacts on other people. So for vaccinations, things which if not used put others (some of whom can’t get vaccinated for various reasons) at extreme risk due to the lack of herd immunity. If the only person you were harming was yourself by not getting vaccinated then I wouldn’t have a problem but the fact is you do and that makes it a matter where the government is more than justified in intervening.

    I’ve read about Gardasil, there’s been no link between it and any deaths that have been associated with it. Here’s a little light reading for you:

    The flu shot is a calculated best guess to protect against what would be the most common flu strains going around in that particular year. As you say the flu strain mutates quite a lot which is why we can do a 1 shot for all type deal so instead we go for the most likely candidates. This has proven to be quite effective and is why the program continues today.

    We know “that shit” won’t hurt us due to decades of research that’s gone into these vaccinations, they’re not a gamble. They’ve got sound, proven science behind them and not believing that is, to put it bluntly, patently stupid. I’ve been fully vaccinated since I was a child and have had several vaccinations since then for travel purposes and I haven’t had any adverse reactions and you know what? That’s the story in the vast majority of the population. You might think that it’s a civil liberties issue but it’s not, your choice to not get vaccinated puts others in danger and that makes you a public health risk.

    So unless you plan to hole up in a cave away from anyone you can hurt by being a carrier (kids especially) I’d suggest you do some reading into the science behind this stuff. I’m more than happy to provide you links to right documents.

  18. If you guys want to vaccinate your kids go right ahead inject them with all of them this site is total disinformation!!! Don’t bag out people who don’t vaccinate after all your kids are vaccinated so you have nothing to worry about right??? I suggest you people thoroughly do you research and if you do want proof i can give you the links unlike this ignorant sheep who is indoctrinated beyond belief. Governments are corrupt and your going to trust them with your health??? check it out make an informed decision!!!! At the end of the day it’s your kids health. I have nieces and nephews, some vaccinated some not. The ones who are not have never been sick and the ones that are are always sick. I also have 4 cats two are not vaccinated two are and needless to say the ones that haven’t been vaccinated are never sick where as the other two are riddled with health problems. Pharmacies make billions a year from drugs. Create a problem get a reaction find a solution. Introduction of vaccines ensures your child will get all the ailments, which means big money for the drug industries. If you guys can not see this then you all deserve to be vaccinated and while your at it you might as well get your kids chipped as well which isn’t too far off either!!! You sheeple need a vaccination against ignorance and stupidity. You can all try and slam me if you like but I’m a bit beyond that know so goodluck!!! DO YOUR RESEARCH!!!!

  19. @Notovacs Sure the people who have vaccinated might not have anything to worry about but what about those who can’t vaccinate their kids (due to allergies or them being too young)? Not vaccinating kids that can be puts herd immunity, and by extension those children, at risk. Not doing so when you’re able to is incredibly selfish especially when there’s no evidence to back up your decision.

    Are you seriously suggesting faith as a way to combat disease? That site borders on being hate speech with choice lines like: “The present-day Jews are NOT God’s “Chosen People.”.

    I’m sorry simply pointing to a website that advocates all manner of unproven dribble is not “doing your research”. I’d link you to some actual scientific studies but I get the feeling that you wouldn’t read them because they were some how corrupt. Seriously don’t go spreading that kind of misinformation around you’re putting children at risk with that kind of behavior and that’s something that I really can’t abide by.

  20. Mate that website would take you ten years to get through with the amount of information thankyou for once again showing how ignorant you are, goodluck and hope you take all the vaccinations I have had none and I’m never ever sick not wasting my time on your illuminati based site. And you are the one dishing out drivel and putting kids life at stake and I can guarantee you I have plenty more sites and resources available but I’m not wasting my time on this site as you are a sheep and are addressing a herd of Sheep who are too lazy to actually do there own research and listen to ignorant fools as yourself. Next your going to tell me flouride is good for you too right because of scientific research?? Your science means nothing to me. The higher up you are in the chain the more indoctrinated you are!! I suppose Steven Hawkins is your messiah and we all came from the sea and evolved into complex beings. I feel sorry for you all so so sad people listen to disinformation like this rubbish site and hang on every word of the media and listen to what they are told to listen to. I thoroughly hope people do there research. I would be glad to debunk you on any topic via Skype with an audience and since you obviously do not believe in god I will even use science to debunk you if your so confident!!! Anytime!!!!

  21. Here’s one of many related deaths due to vaccinations. any proof of anything you want you ask ill find it !!! And if you delete my posts then I know you are incapable of providing people with the truth!!!

    Vaccine programmes grind to a halt in India once more, when four children died after they received the measles vaccination in Lucknow. The four children were reported to have fainted soon after they were vaccinated and witnesses reported seeing the children’s eyes roll back as they began to have seizures. All of the children were under the age of two years of age, with the youngest being just six months. Sadly the children died before medical aid workers could reach them.
    As news of the deaths spread, immunization drives in 41 villages have been halted until further investigations have taken place.
    The Indian Express stated in their article 4 children die within minutes of vaccination – that-
    “The immunisation programme was being conducted as part of the government’s Jachha Bachha Suraksha Abhiyan launched on August 15. Minutes after vaccination, the children started gasping for breath.”

  22. As per this article which mentions the deaths : “”It appears from all indications there is no problem with the vaccine. It is a programme error (the way the vaccine is handled). As per WHO guidelines, vaccine which comes in a vial should be reconstituted and used within two hours but there have been instances when the vaccine has been reconstituted and kept overnight (before being administered),” said N Anand, general manager, marketing, Indian Immunological Ltd.”

    There was no problem with the vaccine there it was the way it was administered. It’s a tragedy, I won’t argue that, but you can’t write off the efficacy of the vaccine based on the misuse. Indeed considering the number of doses that have been administered the fatality rate is far below that of what you’d have without the vaccine.

    You do understand that vaccines are first tested for safety before efficacy right? So whilst all those ingredients may sound horrific they are completely safe at the levels present in the vaccine. Do you have any concerns about particular ingredients because I can provide you the safety data sheets on their use in various vaccines and could probably even track down the Phase 1 clinical trials that proved their safety.

    You do realise that the events talked about in that interview happened back in 1950 and were remedied shortly after their discovery? The transcript of the interview provides no evidence for the assertion that current vaccines give you AIDS or cause cancer. Indeed the only evidence I could find of them ever being linked was from this: where malicious aid workers conspired to give 400 children the virus. That, again, does not mean that vaccines are the cause of them.

    Dr Mercola is more credible than I am? Please, this is the same guy who’s company was told to stop making illegal claims about the efficacy of his products. He disagrees with large bodies of science without any evidence to back up his claims. I’m sorry but if you’re going to rely on someone like him for reputable information than you’re going to be horribly misled.

    That article doesn’t seem to understand what the term “risk” means. Vaccines are safe for the vast majority of people, on the order of 99.999%+, but that doesn’t mean there are potential side effects. Indeed all doctors are trained in identifying the symptoms that can follow vaccinations, usually a fever in most cases, and in the very rare cases of allergic reactions they can be treated before anything gets out of hand. Vaccines aren’t deadly by any stretch of the imagination as if they were then we’d be seeing a whole bunch more deaths than we have. I personally know of dozens of people who have been vaccinated without incident and as studies show there are millions, MILLIONS more who have also done the same. If you want to ignore all the real evidence, not the stuff written by quacks and idiots on random conspiracy theorist style blogs, then go ahead but don’t go spreading that stuff around to other people. You’re doing the world a great disservice.

  23. Riddle me this genius professor… Isn’t the flu vaccine suppose to prevent you from getting the flu??? Then why is it I know 5 people that got the flu vaccine all of them were sick after their shot and all of them got the flu and I didn’t ,please explain that what was the point of them getting the shot If they still got the flu mr genius??? And they were trying to force me to take it??? I would love to hear the crap your going to trying and drivel now??? Because I’m beside myself waiting for this explanation

  24. The flu vaccination is a combination of 3 different shots, each targeting a different strain. These are done seasonally as the flu virus is highly variable and mutates rather fast so a shot one year will be different to the next. They are essentially a well educated guess as to which flu strains are going to prevalent that year and do not offer full protection from all strains or mutations of influenza.

    All that being said studies have shown that the use of the flu shot reduces your risk of catching the flu by about 25%: The reduction on hospitalization rates was unaffected but that is typically rare anyway so any effect on that was likely lost within the margins of error of the study. The flu shot is probably the only vaccine I don’t bother recommending due the lack of compelling results (I.E. it certainly works for those flu strains but its benefits aren’t that great, even if provided for free). However the study in this area has led to the development of universal flu vaccines which are currently undergoing Phase 1 clinical trials. In fact the H1N1 flu vaccine was responsible for providing a potential research avenue due to the immuno response of vaccinated individuals.

    So to answer your question: they likely got a flu strain that they weren’t immunized against and you got lucky. Who was trying to force you to take it? Most places I’ve worked at simply offer it and it’s up to you to go and take it.

    The plural of anecdotes aren’t data and I could say the exact opposite about your experience (I personally know of about 10 people who got the flu shot and didn’t get sick) but the evidence is there in the academic research to support my side of the argument. This isn’t some kind of dirty secret that BigPharma are trying to hide from you, the results are all public information. Even though the flu shot might not be worth bothering it has led us down the path of getting something truly remarkable and that has an enormous amount of value. Don’t be so quick to throw that all away, you might be surprised at just how good we are at this modern medicine thing.

  25. Wow did you have to use both your brain cells to come up with that. Your proof vaccines cause damage.vaccinate away dickhead, get all of them because chances are you will die prematurely and we can do with less fucking ignorant morons as yourself your a sheep and your ready to be chipped you fucking retard. Now to the other genius keep vaccinating yourself buddy I never have never will and have never been sick a day in my life so for all you others do you research either way I really do not give a rats arse what you guys do you can inject yourself with all the vaccinations you want it’s your body and your kids body you ain’t harming me!!! And as far as your reply to flu shot I know others that have had other vaccinations and I even know of parents who have had kids die from it. Short and simple everyone I know who has had vaccinations are always sick I’m 39 and never have been sick not even a sniffle and others I know as well have never been sick so even if I had no other information to go by that alone would be good enough for me. You guys can have your last say this is my last post as I have wasted enough time on retards for one day. And for the retard who tried to put me down you need to go get an innoculation against retardation but then again your parents are most likely brother and sister so sorry no vaccinations are available as yet for slack jawed yokels like yourself!!! Happy vaccinating guys!!!! And please get as many as you can so that the future will be dumbass free!!!

  26. You’re drawing some rather illogical conclusions based on the data that has been presented to you. No matter what kinds of treatment you look at there are always going to be cases where things go wrong, even for things that simply don’t work (like homeopathy) the lack of treatment will eventually be the thing that gets them. To point to a few cases where things have gone wrong does not and will not invalidate the entire study and use of vaccines. Can you really argue against the eradication of diseases like small pox, polio and diphtheria which have can be wholly attributed to the use of vaccines? If your argument relies on the minority of cases to base your argument off then you are unfortunately doing the exact opposite of good science and that’s not going to help anyone.

    You obviously do care, on some level, as why would you bother coming back here and repeating the same facts at us ad-infinitum unless you in some way felt it would change our opinions? The fact is that by not vaccinating yourself or your kids (if you have any) you are in fact a public health risk to other people. There are many cases of people who were non-symptomatic carriers who infected others the most famous of which was Typhoid Mary:

    I think you’ll find vaccinated people tend to live longer than those who aren’t. Need a good example? Third world countries which have some of the lowest vaccination rates: Are they all magically healthy? No, they’re not so your arguments of less vaccination somehow translating into “better health” doesn’t even stand up to casual scrutiny.

    I can make anecdotal arguments too as I’ve been fully vaccinated as well as several follow up vaccinations for work related travel. Have I been sick? Yes and you have too because it’s inevitable that you’ve had a cold or sore muscle you couldn’t explain. But as for all the crazy things that are supposed to come with the vaccines that you keep talking about? None of them have happen to me, nor all the people I know who have been fully vaccinated. If you’re going to play on this blog you’d better bring something better than anecdotes to the table.

    I guess that doesn’t matter to you though as you clearly stated that you only need anecdotal evidence to support whatever it is you believe in. I should probably stop typing here.

    Ah but I can’t because you keep posting stuff, back on the debunking wagon.

    I’ve already explained why Mercola isn’t reputable and he’s drawing conclusions that no other scientist would from the data he’s been presented. The whooping cough epidemic that happened in California was the direct result of people not vaccinating their children and the incidents rates of the diseases he’s listed are the same precisely because we have mandated vaccination programs. I’d go on but the fact of the matter is you can’t rely on him for any advice at all as he’s been thoroughly discredited several times over.

    I myself don’t need to have any credibility in online discussions like these when the data speaks for itself. It supports my view point, not all these other ones you keep bringing up. You know how I know that? Because I’ve dug through the journal articles, read the results of clinical trials and none of them, not one, supports the ideas you’re putting forth. If you happen across some peer-reviewed journals that support your point of view I’ll happy read them in their entirety and debate their merits with you. However if you keep linking to BigPharma conspiracy sites like Natural News and Dr Mercola then I’m not sure we can have a discussion at that level, especially if you’re going to keep bringing anecdotal evidence into it.

  27. First of all I didn’t say I rely only on anecdotal information you said that. Secondly you have got to be kidding me with third world countries I think the main killer there is starvation buddy vaccines is the least of there worries. Now the only problem I have with this issue is the fact that its forced upon us especially kids in schools etc. And do not give me this garbage about herd immunity that baby has be debunked many times over. Now please explain why your sources are reliable and you keep saying my sources are not??? because your sources are main stream media does that make it more credible?? I think not. And if you do your research you will find that since vaccinations deaths and various sickness have sky rocketed and that is a fact. I’m not going to spoon feed you. If you believe so much in your vaccinations then you have nothing to worry about the people who are not vaccinated!!! Again the herd immunity theory has been debunked. If anything the people who are not vaccinated should be avoiding people who are as vaccinated people are more likely to get sick and that is also a fact. You can rant and rave all you want but the WHO is corrupt and its all about profit and population control. And yes I know I’m flogging a dead horse here but if you guys didn’t force it on the population especially our kids I wouldn’t be having this discussion. You want feel your body with mercury and other toxins and poisons that’s your decision but don’t force your crap and poison on to others. After all I’m not here telling you not to take vaccinations I’m just saying do your research and if you feel it’s right do it you have the right after all.. But we also have the right to say no!!! That is all!!!!

  28. Notovacs :

    Short and simple everyone I know who has had vaccinations are always sick I’m 39 and never have been sick not even a sniffle and others I know as well have never been sick so even if I had no other information to go by that alone would be good enough for me.

    If that doesn’t qualify as relying on anecdotal evidence then I’m not sure what to think anymore.

    So you picked up on that, well done. Now hopefully you’ve decoupled the idea of vaccinations are related to bad health or whatever you think they’re related to.

    I’m all for social liberties but there’s one time when the government is completely validated in intervening and that’s when your actions impact on the lives of others. You say that herd immunity has been debunked but it hasn’t, see: and This is key to ensuring that those terrible diseases don’t reoccur in the population is achieving a certain level of vaccinated people and the anti-vax movement puts that at risk. The less people that vaccinate the greater the chance is that someone who can’t be vaccinated will get it and the greater the chance for mutations occur that could then re-infect immunized individuals.

    My sources aren’t main stream media, they’re scientific publications. If you’d taken the small amount of time to go through any of my links you’d find that they’re all backed up by sound science. All the claims you are making are simply not backed up by the research that has actually done. The only evidence you’re able to offer me are blogs that grossly misrepresent the data, are outright lies or are so deep in conspiracy theory territory that I can’t even begin to unravel the crazy from the data. The reason my data is credible is because it’s repeatable and verifiable, your sources are not.

    We’re “forcing” it on you because otherwise you’re a risk to us. If you’d prefer that not to be the case then there’s the door, no one is keeping you here.

    You have a right to do whatever you please right up until the point where it starts impacting the lives of others. You keep telling me to do my research, I have, and none of it supports your theory. The simple fact is that not vaccinating ultimately leads to resurgences in diseases that were all but extinct and puts individuals who can’t be vaccinated at risk. This is a public health issue which overrides your freedom of choice in this regard. You may not like that, indeed many anti-vaxers parrot the civil liberties argument, but like it or not your choice in this matter has an impact on others and you cannot absolve yourself from that responsibility.

    This is all an aside from the fact that your reasoning for not wanting a vaccine in the first place is not based in sound reasoning or facts which I’ve covered enough already.

  29. Again ill have to repeat myself so listen. I said if all I had to rely on the operative word in that sentence is If… But I don’t I have all my sources. Now let me get this straight, going by your logic just because its printed in a medical journal with bullshit stats and flgures that makes it correct because its “reputable” you say. But as soon as other reputable doctors say anything that is contrary to these medical journals then its incorrect is that pretty much the jist of it. So if its a blog then it’s crap is that right… Well with the exception of your blog of course right thats 100 per ent correct yer? I don’t believe in science so using your science means nothing to me the same way as trying to preach about god if you don’t believe then you can not use the bible as the premise of your argument. All your arguments are flawed and you know it.. All your sources are no more credible than mine it’s just a matter of what side your on, so stop feeding me this crap about your “reptuable” medical journals you might have the sheeple fooled who might hang on your every word but I can think for myself I don’t have to turn on the news and go to the doctor to take a vaccination because the news reporter said so. And the herd immunity has been debunked… I read the drivel and all the other drivel in your links and like I said just because its in a medical journal “backed” with bullshit research still does not make it true!!! Everyone is different so of course some people will take vaccinations and it will not effect them others will die some might not take vaccines and die or live to 100 so either way you can’t prove to me by not taking vaccines I won’t live longer than you. I’m pretty much middle aged never been sick all my grandparents lived to over 90 no vaccines so where doing just fine thanx. And I would loveto know where you pulled that statistic from that people have a longer life span that are vaccinated because I don’t recall doing a survey on it!!! And your Third world country comment was a joke right??you can’t possibly be that stupid!!!

  30. That’s the great thing about science, it doesn’t require your belief in it to be true. The mere fact that it’s published in a journal doesn’t necessarily make it true, indeed there are many cases (like Dr Wakefield’s study that linked Autism to vaccines) where publications have been wrong. However the great thing about the scientific community is that they’re constantly on the look out for that kind of thing and the second anything someone has said isn’t verifiable or their conclusions aren’t correct they’re swiftly pulled or corrected. Science doesn’t pretend to have all the answers but there are a lot of things we do have answers for and we can prove it, time and time again.

    Science and religion are as alike as chalk and cheese as one gives you the evidence and the methods by which to verify it and the other demands that you accept what is said based on faith. I don’t know about you (actually I kind of do thanks to your numerous comments here) but when it comes to my health I like to base things around evidence that has been tested and proven repeatedly. I don’t have to have faith in it nor do I have to believe in it to work, it has been proven to work through rigorous experimentation. You’re free to not believe in it but that doesn’t stop it from being true.

    I’m sorry but my arguments aren’t the flawed ones here. Feel free to provide some kind of evidence (which I’ve laid out clear and simple guidelines for) to back up any of your claims and I’ll be happy to investigate it.

    Please provide some kind of reference for herd immunity being debunked. You haven’t given me any reason to doubt it apart from saying “herd immunity has been debunked” twice which doesn’t constitute any form of proof.

    Because if it does: vaccines work.

    Vaccines work.

    How is the research bullshit? You do realise that if you’re so inclined to prove it is bullshit that all the instructions on how to construct the experiment are right there in the journal. Why don’t you prove them wrong by conducting the study and showing their results are bunk?

    Or is the fact that that’s probably already been done not enough for you?

    There’s an extremely strong correlation between the introduction of vaccines and the average life span of a population. See: and Even if you did do a survey it wouldn’t change things as a single data point is meaningless in the greater context.

    Vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis (VAPP) is not unknown and has an incident rate of 1 in 750,000 and really only applies to the oral version of the vaccine. That’s the reason why most major countries, which have all but eradicated polio, use the injectable version instead. Still the incident rate is so low that the benefit far outweighs the risk. Indeed it works so well that it’s been 2 years since we’ve had a case of polio induce paralysis in India, either from the vaccine or from the wild virus.

    Thimerosal has been proven to have no link to any form of neurological damage, especially in relation to Autism rates:

    I’ve checked out Dr. Gary Null and he has a vested interest in peddling his own supplements which he supports with books that have wild claims in them like HIV not causing AIDS. This disagrees with decades of science and he’s been unable to show any conclusive proof to back up his claims. At the same time his credentials are of a highly questionable origin and his thesis work did not test for the things he thought it was. So yes again, he is not credible and is not to be trusted.

  31. Last I checked Australia was still a democracy with certain freedoms of speech and choice, this thank fuck is one of them.

    Now I have had my children vaccinated to a point but fuck anyone telling me I HAVE to or else, no leftist green/ALP voting dick suck is going to take that right away without a fucking bloodbath.

    Fuck you Geek and your Fabian fucked up ideals.

  32. You have the freedom to choose sure, but that freedom doesn’t extend to there being no consequences for your actions. Not vaccinating your children puts others at risk, there’s no disputing that, and when your behaviour puts other people in danger than the government has every right to step in.

    This has nothing to do with any particular political leaning, it’s more of a humanist ideal than anything else. You do not, in fact, have the right to put other’s health at risk without there being consequences to these actions and if you have a problem with that then I suggest you look at any other developed country as the laws are near identical.

    Somehow this equates to socialism? I’m not sure I follow you here.

  33. It has become blatantly obvious after reading the first few posts that Vin and Notovacs have absolutely no understanding of the scientific method of research and rigorous peer review that is undertaken before a paper is published.

    But it should also be obvious that for every amazing technology that science (medicine in particular) develops, no matter how well evidenced, will meet opposition from those who are ill informed and sceptical for whatever reason (it should be mentioned just how ridicilous Vin sounds when he starts talking about government conspiracy theories surrounding genocide). Take smallpox variolation for example. How many fools caused thousands of deaths due to an unfounded belief that smallpox vaccination did not work. Smallpox has basically been eradicated from the earth (apart from being used in some of the earlier mentioned conspiratorial genocides). I consider reading this article, and spending two minutes writing this response to perhaps be the most useless exercise in futility I have ever undertaken.

  34. Herd immunity is a myth. Vaccination is a hoax. Doctors are drug mules for pharmaceutical companies. My 3 month old is unvaccinated. I have a conscientious objection from my doctor. My child has spent a lot of time with my 6 other unvaccinated siblings and his 7 unvaccinated cousins. We have absolutely no fear whatsoever of the pathetic diseases the clueless doctors vaccinate against. We opt for natural immunity. I couldn’t care less what the rest of the population does.

  35. Herd immunity is not a myth, it’s a well known and studied scientific principle. There are numerous studies that show the effect in action and, funnily enough, the expected results when pockets of people choose not to vaccinate their children (I.E. they get the disease in question):

    Doctors are drug mules for pharmaceutical companies? Do you have anything to back up that potentially libellous allegation? If you don’t then it might be time to reconsider your opinion as you might be confusing facts for an emotional argument.

    There’s only a few kinds of “natural immunity” and they all come from enduring whatever that disease is. You should be thankful you live in a world that’s mostly rid of Polio as otherwise all your children would likely be crippled by the rather heinous effects of that disease. Oh don’t worry, you’ll be immune to it afterwards, but living in an iron lung for the rest of your life might not be everyone’s cup of tea.

    You should care because the vast majority of the world’s population is doing you a huge favour: they’re acting as a massive barrier between you and the world that’s filled with preventable diseases. If everyone acted like you did there would be no way you’d be able to enjoy the same luxury you do now as evidenced by the multiple outbreaks of diseases that hadn’t been seen for years, some even decades.Your decision to not vaccinate not only puts your children at risk, it puts everyone else in danger as well.

    Are you that selfish to consider yourself above all others?

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